Oriental Mind Secrets – Interview with JB #3 – Milarepa to Krishnamurrti March 17, 2008
Posted by Geoffrey Wilson in : Interview Transcripts , add a comment‘Right and wrong are situational. In the appropriate situation nothing is wrong. Without the appropriate situation, nothing is right. What is right in one case is not what is right in another. What is wrong in one case is not what is wrong in another.’ Masters of Huainan
INT. OFFICE — CONTINUOUS
(JB to listeners)
JB
Hello everybody and welcome to oriental mind secrets, an audio series designed to provide you the listener with access to the amazing work of Geoffrey Wilson – author of a remarkable distance learning course on oriental psychology.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
And hello to you, Geoff. What’s happening down under?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
It’s been an odd week. One day cool, boiling the next – at least here in Sydney. We’re gearing up for a visit from the Sri Lankans and Indians this summer in the cricket. And of course on a personal note, the task list seems to grow exponentially.
JB LAUGHS.
(JB to audience)
JB
How’s that?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Would like me to give you a rundown?
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Please do.
HE CHUCKLES.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
There’s the blog.
GEOFF
If I didn’t have much else to do, writing an entry once a week wouldn’t be too tough an assignment. But that’s not the case. Concurrently, I’m writing a novel, editing the final drafts of two screenplays, writing thirteen drafts for what will become thirty minute episodes of the new television series on holistic medicine that I’m writing and producing, and working on an audio book – my first attempt – with a distinguished old school Australian theater and film actor – Simon Chilvers – who has agreed to narrate the book – taken from my own novella. Then there’s the clinic and the management of patients and we haven’t gone shopping yet!
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Sounds like you’re a bit overwhelmed Geoff. I would be too with a workload like that!
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
When you put it that way, I guess I am. In the same breath, I love my work so much I don’t see it as work.
Brief pause.
GEOFF
So the project I’m doing with the actor, Simon Chilvers, for example, is a once in a lifetime type of opportunity. He’s brilliant. Can you imagine having the benefit of all those years behind you, acting and directing, and editing, and strategising? Just the wealth of that world? And of course he has the most extraordinary voice. The audio book is based on my novella ‘The Redemption of Mila’ – and I also wrote a screenplay for it. As you can tell, I’m very passionate about the story.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What’s it about?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The story is about the life of Milarepa – the Tibetan saint who it can be said had a life lived in two distinct halves. The first half of his life is the dark period. Without spoiling the telling of the story, at a young age he is forced into slavery and promises his mother to seek revenge on those who have done he and his mother and sister wrong. He takes up the black arts of sorcery and wreaks havoc. It is an extraordinary tale of revenge in fact. Some of it is quite gruesome and he gains something of a reputation as a skillful sorcerer. But you see, he can’t take it. He feels remorse for what he has done out of vengeance and so he looks for a way out. The second half of his life is the story of his redemption and the struggle he endures to atone for his misdeeds.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Sounds very interesting. I’ve heard that Milarepa is one of the founders of Tibetan Buddhism in fact. And that his philosophies are alive and well today – and that they actually form part of our new age vocabulary. What are some of these philosophies Geoff?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I think I’ll go straight for the gold JB.
JB
Why not?
GEOFF
It has been suggested that Milarepa’s enlightenment occurred while he was holed up in a cave following an initiation he received from his teacher Marpa the translator.
JB
That’s an odd name.
GEOFF
Not really. You see Milarepa’s teacher was known for his travels to India in search of ancient scriptures. He would bring them back and then translate them. Hence the name – Marpa the translator. His task was to bring Milarepa to enlightenment following his disciple’s fall from grace and his time spent as a sorcerer.
JB
Okay. That makes sense. So what is the gold?
GEOFF
If there is such a thing as the final goal, Milarepa taught, one has to realize the non-existence of the personal ego. In realizing this, one understands the illusion of its existence in the first place. To realize the illusion, to grasp it, to comprehend it, the mind must be very quiet. Indeed. As Milarepa said, ‘One must therefore learn more than the definition of quietude’.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Most profound. And I dare say that in order to learn more than the definition of quietude is to learn about the art of meditation – which is the subject of our discussion today.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Jolly good. I knew we’d get there eventually. In the same breath, this is a rather delightful seguay. What better way to talk about meditation than through the life of Milarepa. And as you may already know JB, everyone seeks peace and harmony. We want to find out what will help free us from our miseries – the agitation, the irritation, the disharmony and so on ans so forth. Am I right?
(JB to Geoff)
JB
You are.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
But the funny thing is that we don’t just keep these miseries to ourselves do we?
JB
No.
GEOFF
We project them onto others as well.
JB
Now that you mention it, I suppose we do.
GEOFF
So now we have a situation where unhappiness permeates the atmosphere around someone – you for example.
JB
You’re picking on me a lot today.
GEOFF
Who else can I pick on?
Laugh and a pause.
GEOFF
You are miserable and you then come into contact with others. What do you think happens to them?
(JB to Geoff)
JB
They become affected and infected!
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes, they become infected by your misery – immediately. They pick up on the vibe in the same way an infant picks up on the vibe of a complete stranger.
JB
Are you saying people are emotional sponges?
GEOFF
I am. But it gets worse. Certainly becoming a slave to this unhappiness is not a very skillful way to live either for you or
someone else. If you think about it, the cause of suffering is the generation of negativity and when this happens we are bound to become unhappy. Put it this way, negativity cannot coexist with peace and harmony.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
I suppose you are right. How do we then generate negativity Geoff? An you explain the process for us?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Sure. We become unhappy when we find someone behaving in a way that we don’t like or when we find something happening which we don’t like.
JB
So far so good.
GEOFF
Unwanted things happen and this creates tension within. And then while this is happening, desired things do not happen – some obstacle gets in the way to prevent it happening – and again, this increases tension within.
JB
The days, weeks, months, and years fly past.
GEOFF
They do.
JB
Unwanted things keep on happening, and desired things don’t happen.
GEOFF
Correct.
JB
We become so tense, so full of negativity, that life becomes miserable.
GEOFF
You got it!
(JB to Geoff)
JB
How do you put an end to it then?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Good question. The wisdom keepers, that is to say, the saints and sages of the ancient world, studied this problem at great length – as I’m sure you can appreciate.
JB
I do.
GEOFF
That’s what Milarepa’s life was about. And each of these wonderful souls discovered that you have to face the problem. Whenever negativity arises in the mind, you must observe it, face it directly, and don’t ever run away from it. And as soon as the negativity is observed as it is, for what it is, the impurities accumulating in the mind, begin to lose their power and they slowly evaporate.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
But how does this happen?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Problems are inside everybody, aren’t they? They’re never outside.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
True.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
We tend to think that they are outside, but they are not.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Yes, that is true. Definitely.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Problems then are nothing more than our own reactions to things.
JB
Okay.
GEOFF
That is what keeps destroying our peace of mind and that is what keeps destroying our harmony.
JB
Reactions?
GEOFF
Yes. We become unhappy because we’re always reacting. Even when things are going well, we start getting attached to our feelings about them. We think ‘this is fabulous’ – ‘I hope it lasts forever’. Of course, it doesn’t and it is at this point that we become miserable because it doesn’t last forever.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Bummer!
JB laughs.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Perhaps, but that’s the way it is.
Geoff laughs.
GEOFF
Stay with me JB. This is where it gets very interesting.
JB
I’m with you buddy.
GEOFF
Good. Mental purification is the removal of reactions that make people feel unhappy.
JB
Reactions are always external aren’t they?
GEOFF
Think about it.
GEOFF
Aren’t anger, passion, fear, depression, anxiety, and so on, just reactions to what is going on outside?
JB
They are.
GEOFF
So with training and practice, it is very easy to observe respiration – the breathing – and body sensations – what you are feeling – both of which are directly related to mental defilements.
JB
I guess so.
GEOFF
As soon as negativity arises in the mind, the breath will lose it’s normality. It will start shouting. ‘Look here mister, something has gone wrong’. And of course, we cannot reprimand the breath, can we?
JB laughs.
JB
No, we can’t reprimand the breath. That would be too silly!
GEOFF
Right. So we can only accept the warning – sensations also tell us something is wrong. Having been warned about the breath, about these sensations, we can observe both the respiration and the corresponding sensations. Sooner or later, we discover that the negativity vanishes.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
But how?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The soma-psyche phenomenon is like a coin with two sides. On one side of the coin are the thoughts and emotions arising in the mind. On the other side of the coin, are breathing and sensations in the body.
JB
Let me get this right. One side houses thoughts and feelings. The other side houses sensations and breathing. What happens in one will be experienced in the other.
GEOFF
Precisely. Any thoughts and emotions, or any mental impurities that may arise, manifest in the breath and sensations of that moment.
JB
So by observing the respiration or the sensations, we are in fact observing mental impurities.
GEOFF
That’s it. Instead of running away from them, we are facing reality as it is. We then discover that these impurities lose their strength and they no longer overpower us as they once did. If we persist, these impurities disappear altogether and we may begin to live peacefully and happily – free from negativities.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Where does this technique come from? Did you invent it?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
This technique – if it can be called a technique – it is more an approach – a way of thinking – is called vipassana. The word means to see things as they really are.
JB
I’ve heard of it. Aren’t there special retreats? Ten day, fourteen day and thirty day retreats?
GEOFF
Yes there are. All over the world. Vipassana is one of India’s greatest exports. Self-transformation through self-observation. Another word for it is insight meditation.
JB
Who is responsible for discovering it? Do we know?
GEOFF
It was discovered or rediscovered by Gautama Buddha more than 2,500 years ago and was taught by him as a universal remedy for the treatment of universal ills.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So Vipassana is Buddhist. I didn’t know that.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Don’t worry, JB. The label doesn’t matter. It is irrelevant.
He laughs.
GEOFF
The technique or approach is what is important. It shows us reality in two aspects – the inner and the outer. Most people are trained to look at the outer only – completely missing the inner reality – with the result that they always look outside of themselves for the cause of their unhappiness.
JB
And as such, the outer gets blamed for everything.
GEOFF
Correct. And ignorant of the inner reality, therefore, it is difficult to understand that the cause of suffering lies within – put simply, our blind reactions towards pleasant and unpleasant sensations is the sole cause of this suffering.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
If blind reaction represents judgment, then our expression of a preference for this or that is what ultimately separates us – divides us – and we become fragments – cut into two.
JB
When you accept this but reject that, you are caught in the problem of dividing reality into two halves. Naturally though, reality is not divided. It is whole.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Very good JB. This is the problem with Western thinking going right back to Aristotle.
JB
How do you mean?
GEOFF
Aristotle is the one who said you’ve got a choice. You can choose this or you can choose that. He neglected to mention the mischief implied by choosing one thing over another.
JB
Can you elaborate?
GEOFF
If I choose this, I will have to reject that. The reality however is not concerned with preferences. There is only the whole. It is not made up of right and wrong, good and bad. As the Masters of Huainan say, ‘Right and wrong are situational. In the appropriate situation nothing is wrong. Without the appropriate situation, nothing is right. What is right in one case is not what is right in another. What is wrong in one case is not what is wrong in another.
JB
Can you refer back to your coin analogy?
GEOFF
With training, we can learn to see the other side of the coin simultaneously. We can become aware of our breathing as well as what is happening on the inside. Whatever it is, breath or sensation, we can learn to observe it without losing our mental balance.
GEOFF
Most importantly, we can stop reacting and when we cease reacting, we can put an end to the vicious cycle of multiplying our misery. In lieu of this, mental defilements come and go – like thoughts – eventually they pass away.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So in effect, you are saying that if one watches without judgment, but just watches.. Then sensations of every kind – previously perceived as positive or negative – but now without reference to either positive or negative – completely lose their sting.
GEOFF
That’s correct.
JB
I get it. So in watching without judgment, ‘what is’ remains as ‘what is’ – whatever it is. Nothing can be done about it. It is as it is.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
You got it. And the more one practices this sublime technique, the more quickly negativities dissolve. Gradually, the mind is liberated from defilements and it becomes pure.
JB
Very cool. It’s quite similar to Krishnamurti, really.
GEOFF
How do you figure?
JB
I would say vipassana is similar to the teaching of Krishnamurti in as much as there is only the act of observation – what he called, the phenomenon of the observer and the observed.
GEOFF
I see what you’re saying – yes. The observer is the observed.
GEOFF
There is no interval between them. Nor is there a naming ceremony. In other words, the urge to label things ends and with it, judgment. There is then only observation. He called it passive watchfulness.
JB
And finally today, what would you say are the qualities of a pure mind Geoff?
GEOFF
In as much as the description is never the described – another borrowing from Krishnamurti – he’s right – we are second hand people -
- They laugh -
GEOFF
- a pure mind is a loving mind. Such a mind is always full of love, full of selfless love for others, full of compassion, for the failings and sufferings of others, full of joy, and it is ultimately equanimous – in the face of any challenge or circumstance.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wonderful.
FADE OUT:
Oriental Mind Secrets – Geoffrey Interview with James Brown #2 December 24, 2007
Posted by Geoffrey Wilson in : Interview Transcripts , add a commentORIENTAL MIND SECRETS
‘From the Top’
2nd Interview between Geoffrey Wilson and James Brown
Geoffrey Wilson (Copyright September 2007)
INT. OFFICE — CONTINUOUS
(JB to listeners)
JB
Hello everybody and welcome to oriental mind secrets, an audio series designed to provide you the listener with access to the amazing work of Geoffrey Wilson – author of a remarkable distance learning course on oriental
psychology.
(JB to Geoff)
JB (CONT’D)
And hello to you, Geoff. What’s happening down under?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
We’re in the middle of spring now, probably the best time of the year in Sydney. Beautiful weather. The beach. Wouldn’t be dead for quids.
JB LAUGHS.
(JB to audience)
JB
That’s an Australian phrase which means it’s good to be alive! ‘Wouldn’t be dead for quids.’
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Do the Japanese have something similar?
(JB to Geoff)
JB
I’m not sure. I don’t know enough of the language. But I’ll ask my wife and get back to you on that one.
HE CHUCKLES.
JB (CONT’D)
On a more serious note then Geoff, I’m absolutely intrigued by the material you’ve put together on
(MORE)
2.
JB (CONT’D)
spiritual alchemy. It makes sense that alchemy would have a spiritual side to it. Some people might know that material alchemy is the transmutation of base metals into gold. If not gold, a process of transmutation where the nature of something is transformed from one state into another. What does this mean when applied to the human mind? Better still, what is spiritual alchemy? Can you explain it to the layperson?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Sure. Spiritual alchemy is a spiritual practice that basically helps people transform themselves by learning how to overcome their limitations and dump their excess baggage.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What are the practical benefits?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
If personal limitations are overcome and excess baggage is discarded, then people can form more meaningful, loving and nurturing relationships. And of course, this allows for a deep healing to take place on the inside. We all want that, don’t we?
(JB to Geoff)
JB
I would think so. At least that has been my experience. On another level Geoff, I’ve often heard references to the
‘philosopher’s stone’ whenever the subject of spiritual alchemy has been raised. What is that about, if you wouldn’t mind explaining? I think it’s quite interesting.
3.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
It is indeed, JB. One could even go so far as to say in fact that possession of the elusive philosopher’s stone has been the goal of serious spiritual seekers since the dawn of time! Doctor John Dee, who was one of Queen
Elizabeth’s advisor’s on subjects as diverse as astronomy and mathematics, as well as alchemy, in the 16th century – is a good example.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Doctor Dee – yes – the famous Doctor Dee. Did he not also go by the name of the queen’s conjuror?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
He did. And then a chap by the name of Edward Kelley, entered Dee’s life in 1582. He was a medium who claimed to be able to contact angels and spirits. Dee longed to understand the ultimate truth about the universe which he
had failed to discover by other means. So Kelley and Dee collaborated. The two companions whose link was gold, on whatever level it manifested, went to Bohemia and Germany, creating a great stir. As the story goes, Kelly came upon a manuscript and a white ball. He went to London to visit Dee who immediately realised that the manuscript dealt with the philosopher’s stone. He opened the white ball and found a white powder inside it that was
none other than the projection powder of the alchemists! With Dee’s help, Kelly was able to experiment and actually make gold.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Didn’t Kelly go to prison and die there?
(Geoff to JB)
4.
GEOFF
He did. But there’s more to the story. You see, Kelly realised that the ability to make gold was only the first stage in understanding the alchemist’s great secret. There were actually three accomplishments – or magisteriums – as they were called.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Magisteriums?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The alchemists of the west believed that ultimate success came in three broad stages that were called magisteriums. They subsequently gave a name to each stage – and then related each of them to a stone.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Hence, the philosopher’s stone!
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Correct. The first magisterium is associated with the lunar stone. It represents gaining control over the body so that every cell is purified and relaxed, free of knots and constrained emotional energy. The second magisterium is
associated with the solar stone. When fear and the ego-identity cease to influence or interfere, the mind is ontrolled through willpower. Now, when the lunar and solar stones unite, a cosmic presence is created and this gives rise to the stellar stone. The third magisterium therefore is said to be the true atonement with the mind of God – and it allows you to see how small you really are!
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So basically, the secret of the philosopher’s stone enabled a
(MORE)
5.
JB (CONT’D)
man’s soul to attain unity with divine spirit.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
You got it! And this unity reveals the great secret of spiritual growth – that you can only accept, forgive, and love other people, everything in creation – to the extent that you are willing to accept, forgive, and love yourself.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wise words indeed! Hmm.
BRIEF PAUSE.
JB (CONT’D)
Ok, so what about spiritual alchemy?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
In a spiritual sense, alchemy is basically the nullification of negative emotional states so that they do not cause harm to oneself or others.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Would you mind going into negative emotional states for us? What are they and what happens?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
All emotions, JB, are strictly speaking, negative. Let me explain.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Please do, this is very interesting.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Let’s use the Chinese model because I think it is a very good one.
(MORE)
6.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
According to the praxis of Chinese medicine then, anger corrupts the energy of the liver – a most volatile and unstable energy – that disrupts the ability of the liver to regulate the free flowing movement of Qi throughout the
body.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Do all of the organs of the body then, have an association to an emotional state?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
They do. Excitement, for example, scatters the movement of Qi to such an extent that the heart energy becomes chaotic and this unsettles the mind causing the spirit to wander. Buddhists might well call this an aspect of the
monkey mind! Worry brings about stagnation of the spleen energy and this has the effect of damaging the processes of digestion and assimilation – on a physical as well as psycho-emotional level. Grief causes the energy of the lung to contract which is why those who are sad or disappointed suffer from deficiencies of energy – it literally falls away. And perhaps the most debilitating and destructive of emotional energies is fear – which engulfs the kidneys and severs the source of yin and yang in the body – with the result that there is no longer an anchor
for the body/mind and this also means, inadvertently I might add, the strengthening of insecurity – our great nemesis, as it were.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So, before we get too far ahead of ourselves – you are saying that anger, excitement, worry, grief, and fear, have a negative impact on the body/mind – a crippling effect, as it were.
(Geoff to JB)
7.
GEOFF
Correct. And the Chinese alchemists called these crippling energies the ‘five thieves’. In fact, if we were to give a
definition of spiritual alchemy from the Chinese perspective, it would go something along the lines of – ‘to govern the five thieves by the five virtues’.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wow. That’s great. Can I quote you on that?
LAUGHS.
JB (CONT’D)
So, what are the virtues then?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Probably the best way to put this in perspective is to align the virtues with the organs of the body, in the same way that we looked at the thieves. If anger corrupts the liver energy, for example, benevolence restores it.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
I don’t know about you Geoff, but I reckon benevolence is very difficult to define. Would you agree?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I would. But that’s why words are so interesting – especially etymology – the study of words. By the time we’ve pulled benevolence apart, we come to learn that it has something to do with goodness. And goodness is related to the function that soul performs when it’s purpose is awakened truly.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
That makes complete sense – it fits beautifully – when soul is
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8.
JB (CONT’D)
aligned, the liver is harmonious. What about the heart?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
As we have already stated, the heart energy is scattered by excitement. It functions best when it is fed on a diet of
compassion.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Compassion is also difficult to define, in my opinion. And it is quite different to sympathy.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes. Sympathy is emotional whereas compassion is free from emotion. When you look into the word, you find that it really means coming together with someone’s suffering. When I come together with your suffering, then I don’t try and fix it or change it – I don’t judge it as bad or uncomfortable – compassion allows me to sit in whatever you are sitting in – I am with you. And this is the root of love, I think. The source of love – where it is possible to swim in the ocean of love and mercy – as it were.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Compassion is at the heart of Buddhism – so that makes sense. We plan to talk about spiritual practices in a later program so I won’t go into it now, but the heart sutra is really the practical expression of compassion, isn’t it?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes it is. As too is the diamond sutra. But we can go into that when we explore meditation.
(JB to Geoff)
9.
JB
That would be terrific. I can’t wait. But coming back now to our discussion of virtue, you have covered the liver and heart. What virtue is associated with the spleen?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The spleen functions best when it is regulated by sincerity. By sincerity, I mean genuineness. In the same way that you can tell when someone is insincere by the way the words and deeds just don’t match, genuineness represents
intention – and intention that is sincere, can cut through most obstacles. When you stop looking for a reward in the giving, you’ll know the giving is genuine.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
The lung is associated with the virtue of justice. This can easily be misinterpreted, don’t you think?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I do. Most people have their own version of what is fair and just – usually based on their highly prejudiced sense of morality and ethics.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
How are morality and ethics prejudiced?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
There is man’s law and there is God’s law. Man’s law is an invention of the mind. God’s law is a spiritual reality. The mind is a generator of illusion. Spiritual reality is governed by cause and effect. Surely justice belongs in the domain of cause and effect – in a word karma. You reap what you sow – is how saint paul put it.
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10.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
If you mess with someone in some way, you can be sure you’ll get missed with at some point as well. There’s also the question of time. We tend to think in linear terms, so that there is a logical progression from one action to
another. But it doesn’t always work like that. Which is why, I suppose, the soul game involves coming back, time and time again – to work out the unresolved karma.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
That’s certainly an interesting way to put it, Geoff. I like it. Justice is regulated by karma. And if that’s the case, there is no such thing as injustice – in the grand scheme of things. Wow.
BRIEF PAUSE.
JB (CONT’D)
Ok. Let’s get this straight. If an awareness of true justice precludes the lung from being bowled over by regret or an attachment to the ideal, respiration is unobstructed. What about the kidney then? What virtue maintains the vital energy stored in the kidneys?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The kidneys are nourished by wisdom. To understand this, consider how energy depletion occurs rapidly in people who push themselves to the limits of adrenal capacity – only to break down like a horse at the track. When the mind is programmed to fuel ambition and achievement there is never a moment’s rest. Obviously this is not wise. So we can understand a lot about what wisdom is by establishing what it is not. Consequently, wisdom is not based on experience or knowledge. To be wise is to understand the mechanism of the mind and resonate with the virtue of the spiritual reality and its essence within.
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11.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
One aspect of wisdom therefore, is the ability to see through the things of they world and not get seduced by them.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Cool. Se we have covered the virtues. In terms of history then Geoff, whereabouts is the Chinese alchemical tradition placed?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Spiritual alchemy belongs to the inner teachings of Taoism – a combination of Confucian, Buddhist
and Taoist philosophies – established by the sages and disseminated through their classics. The origin of spiritual
alchemy in China can most likely be traced back to the development of the Complete reality school of Taoism – a movement that flourished somewhere between the 11th and 12th centuries. To put it in perspective, around the time of the Norman invasion of Great Britain – when Harold lost his eye at the Battle of Hastings in 1066.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Harold could well have done with some spiritual alchemy, one would imagine!
THEY LAUGH.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I reckon. He might have kept his eye!
LAUGHS.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What was the purpose of the complete reality school?
(Geoff to JB)
12.
GEOFF
To learn about and practice spiritual sublimation – the art of blending the rational and intuitive aspects of human
mentation – the left and right sides of the brain – the fluid and crystal functions of thinking – in order to bring about inner transformation and balance.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
In your work Geoff, you’ve stated that the purpose of alchemy is to transform and refine the crude. In terms of a human being, what is the crude exactly?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The crude represents the dross of temporal conditioning.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
The dross of temporal conditioning?
LAUGHS.
JB (CONT’D)
What is that, for God’s sake? Don’t go too technical on me!
LAUGHS.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Deeply ingrained mind habits that obscure reality. Conditioned patterns of thinking. You know, Pavlov’s dog!
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Pavlov’s dog? You’ve lost me. Please explain.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Ivan Pavlov was a scientist who developed theories of conditioned responses. You know, the dog salivated when food was on the way.
13.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So that’s where it comes from!
GEOFF
Anyway JB, my point in bringing up Pavlov’s dog – was to emphasise the point that people are conditioned by their environment – by what someone else thinks, by what someone else feels, says, or does. In fact, I would go so far
as to suggest the term second hand person – it’s not my term actually – Jiddu Krishnamurti came up with it – but when you think about it, he’s right. We are for the most part, second hand people – shaped by how others think and
feel. And at the root of this conditioning, you will find that emotion is the trigger. Emotion drives how we think and feel.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So back to the aim of spiritual alchemy.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The aim of spiritual alchemy therefore is to transform this second hand person.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
How?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Through burning away acquired habits of conditioning – and destroying negative and destructive behaviours. The principles of this firing process are not difficult to learn, but nonetheless they do require diligent application and expert supervision.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
How does it work?
(Geoff to JB)
14.
GEOFF
The firing process is essentially the management of emotional disturbance. Eventually, one becomes proficient in the art and cultivates profound inner strength. After a while, nothing on the outside is remotely bothersome. Your peace of mind could not be affected by the dropping of a bomb.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Are there any straight forward
tips?
GEOFF
Sure. Number one, acknowledge an emotional disturbance once it arises. Number two, don’t indulge in it. Withdraw it immediately. Number three, honour God on a daily basis. To not increase conscious awareness of this on a daily basis is to indulge in the destructive energy of self-absorption. Number four, confirm that the disturbance you are
experiencing is unbeneficial. For example, jealousy. Then talk it through with someone who understands – someone who is intelligent and not subject to emotional overtones. Number five, read anything that expands on the negative ramifications of indulging in the disturbance. Number six, put pen to paper and identify the negatives – see them clearly as they are – unbeneficial. Number seven, only then relax – only when you are undisturbed.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What are some measures of psychological and emotional stability, Geoff?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The ability to sleep well indicates a settled mind. An appetite for food and sex is a gauge of vitality. A clean body is a good sign. So too is a clean mind.
15.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What is a clean mind?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
A clean mind is free from distractions that otherwise lead to trouble. A distracted mind is not focused and a lack of focus produces fragmentation. I would also say that stability is reflected by an ability to just be.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
In terms of yin and yang, what is the ideal aggregate for a human being to embody?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
According to oriental philosophy, there are four possible destinies for a human being. The first one is where someone is yin on the inside and yin on the outside. What will happen to such a person JB?
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Without yang, I suppose such a person will get lost in a sinking inertia.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Very good. In fact, this person will get trodden on! Soft on the inside and soft on the outside. Emotional and weak, this type will get crushed. The second type is the opposite. Yang on the inside and yang on the outside. A recipe for cruelty. Hard on the inside and hard on the outside. The third type is yin on the inside and yang on the outside. What kind of destiny is this for someone?
(JB to Geoff)
16.
JB
Soft on the inside and hard on the outside is the make-up of a celebrity, isn’t it?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Excellent, JB. Which leaves us with the fourth type.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Yang on the inside and yin on the outside.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
This is the destiny of someone who will develop endlessly!
FADE OUT:
Oriental Mind Secrets – Geoffrey Interview with James Brown #1 December 22, 2007
Posted by Geoffrey Wilson in : Health Tips, Interview Transcripts, Personal Freedom, Philosophy, Psychology, Wisdom Notes , 1 comment so farORIENTAL MIND SECRETS
‘From the Top’
1st Interview between Geoffrey Wilson and James Brown
Geoffrey Wilson (Copyright September 2007)
INT. OFFICE — CONTINUOUS
(JB to listeners)
JB
Hello everybody and welcome to oriental mind secrets, an audio series designed to provide you the listener with access to the amazing work of Geoffrey Wilson – author of a remarkable distance learning course on oriental
psychology.
(JB to Geoff)
JB (CONT’D)
And hello to you, Geoff. What’s happening down under?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The weather here in Sydney is gorgeous at the moment – but we’re not here for the weather, are we JB? We’re here to talk about oriental mind secrets.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
I miss the Sydney weather to be honest, Geoff. You can’t tell me morning meditations followed by a walk on the beach aren’t to die for?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
You’ve got a point JB. That’s how my days start when the sun is out. I’m a lucky man.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Some people say we make our luck, Geoff. What’s your take on luck?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Good question. I think there are two aspects to luck really. One aspect is staying true to your vision.
(MORE)
2.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
When you stay true to your vision and your spiritual plan, your heart energy aligns with your higher soul purpose. Amazing things happen as a result. The second aspect of luck is that good fortune seems to smile on those who are favoured by the grace of God – that little piece of serendipity that comes the way of people who consciously live in
such a way that the laws of cause and effect are respected and followed. Living in this way, the interval between cause and effect never gets too wide – which means there are fewer messes to clean up – unnecessary time is
therefore not spent on doing things that are not productive.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So what you are saying is that everybody is capable of receiving their fair share of luck as long as they abide by the spiritual rules.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Precisely. Another way of saying much the same thing is to suggest the term ‘creative living’. When we live creatively, fear is removed as a response to the challenges we face – and in its place, we discover that the vision is everything. When you live in your vision, your heart automatically governs proceedings – in other words, your thoughts and feelings are elevated to perform a more spiritually aligned function in keeping with a higher purpose.
When this purpose is shared, we discover we aren’t alone.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
On that note then Geoff, how do you see your purpose?
(Geoff to JB)
3.
GEOFF
It has evolved over time I think, JB. Initially, I was immersed in the process of learning what oriental medicine actually is – how it operates, the principles, the art. Once, I became comfortable with my relationship to it, I began to explore outside of the box. I discovered that oriental medicine provides a template for the cultivation and refinement of the complete human being – and that within its structure, it is possible to bring the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual aspects together holistically. I tested this out in the clinic, in the classroom, in every conceivable way. And I learned that in general, people are not aware of the mind,body,spirit connection on a
deep level – that is, as far as it determines their experience of health, balance, and harmony. So as far as purpose goes now, I see myself expanding on playing an educational role. One of the avenues for presenting material
is through seminars and classes. Another avenue that I’m becoming increasingly more interested in is television – presenting holistic medicine in a stimulating and visual way. And of course, distance education is the way of
the future.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
I think you are right, Geoff. The indications certainly are that ‘e learning’ is gaining in popularity. What was it like to design the oriental psychology course? What factors did you have to consider?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I’ve been involved in curriculum development since 1988. The technical aspects of writing curriculum are straight forward. What I really wanted to do with writing an e course though, was to design the program in such a
(MORE)
4.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
way that students would be able to get as close as possible to a classroom situation. To do that it was necessary to include stimulating and exciting learning activities that supported their reading. The most important element however, was the selection of the material to be used. The fields of oriental philosophy and medicine are huge – they are literally worlds within worlds. I wanted to make sure there was plenty of reference to the classics -
especially the I-Ching, the Chuang Tzu, the Wu Chen Pi’en, the Huinanzi, and the Art of War.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What is it about those classics in particular that led to them being included in the course? Let’s start with the I-Ching.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The I-Ching is a book of ancient Chinese wisdom and contains the secrets of 64 spiritual principles – keys to successful living – as it were. And successful living depends on self-mastery.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
The Chuang Tzu is a mysterious book thought by some to contain nothing but riddles. Is this true?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The Chuang Tzu is one of my absolute favourites. In a sense, it is a book of riddles and quite difficult to comprehend without a background in oriental thinking or spiritual practices. It exposes the human condition, sets aside illusions, and does this through storytelling. The book is full of brilliant anecdotes, tales, and stories that are as relevant today as
(MORE)
5.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
they were when they were written, several thousand years ago. Some of the stories in fact are used in modern psychology as a reference – the famous butterfly dream being a good example.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What is the significance of the butterfly dream?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Chuang Tzu has a dream. He wakes up in the morning startled to find he is Chou. He doesn’t know whether Chou has dreamt he is a butterfly or if a butterfly has been dreaming it is Chou. The point of the story is to contemplate the nature of psychological transformation – the butterfly does this instinctively. It simply emerges from they cocoon to discover the joy of flight. A human emerges from the darkness of obscurity at some stage to discover
enlightenment, it is not a simple task and it certainly is not easy. The process of transformation is a struggle because the human has a mind and a mind is something that goes astray! It, the mind, can never be whole – it cannot see the front and back simultaneously – hence, the problem of division. So the journey of transformation for the human is to discover the ending of separateness. This can only be done when distinctions between this and that cease.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wow! What about Wu Chen Pi’en?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The Wu Chen Pi’en is a classic text of spiritual alchemy.
(MORE)
6.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
It is basically a spiritual guide to penetrate the mysteries of the inner teachings of Taoism – and these are primarily concerned with eliminating the negative and destructive influences of temporal conditioning – so that the mind becomes empty.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
There is also the Huainanzi – the teachings of the masters of Huainan – sometimes called the book of leadership and strategy. It’s an incredible book.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes. Anyone genuinely interested in the arts of leadership should become familiar with this collection of sayings. The king of Huainan was a ruler of a small principality within the empire of Han dynasty China – second century
BC. He was already quite a distinguished patron of learning when a group of traveling Taoist masters appeared at court. The teachings follow the ancient tradition of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu and reflect the distillation of the essence of Taoist wisdom and the arts of living using a variety of techniques. Written in a period of reconstruction
following centuries of civil wars, the teachings emphasise the deleterious effects of habitual desires, the negative impact of greed and aggression on human psychology, and the importance of self-knowledge.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Finally Geoff, there is the Art of War, compiled by a mysterious warrior-philosopher, it remains one of the most influential books on strategy in the world today. In essence, what do you think the book is about?
(Geoff to JB)
7.
GEOFF
When viewed in the light of the spiritual tradition of Taoism, the art of war is a study in the psychology of conflict. By understanding conflict, one develops the skills to diffuse or avoid it entirely.
(JB to Geoff
JB
How does that work in a practical
sense?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The beauty of the art of war as a philosophical treatise on avoiding conflict is that it can be applied to business as readily as it can be applied to the running of a household or a medical practice. Let’s take an example. The famous
general Jia Lin said, ‘The strength or weakness of a country depends on its generals. If the generals help the leadership and are thoroughly capable, then the country will be strong. If the generals do not help the leadership, and harbour duplicity in their hearts, then the country will be weak. Therefore it is imperative to be careful in
choosing people for positions of responsibility.’
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Excellent! I’ve also noticed that you place a lot of emphasis on finding a way for students to reconnect with their purpose.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Without an awareness of purpose, life can seem like an endless struggle and sometimes this can lead to the experience of negative thoughts and feelings that inhibit and obstruct spiritual growth and development.
(JB to Geoff)
8.
JB
What do you think gets in the way of connecting with purpose? Are there warning signs that we might be able to recognise?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
There are many. Usually the warning is one of these: You either hate your job or see it as going nowhere fast. Your relationship is either in a rut or you both are going your own separate ways and too afraid to address it. Unresolved issues with mother and father or brother and sister guarantee resentment and blame, and strengthen a case for separation – which is counterproductive. You have money problems that don’t seem to ever go away despite your best attempts to do the right thing. You suffer from chronic health problems that are getting worse and you want to get fixed – as opposed to participating in the process and doing the inner work. Your circle of friends is exclusive and rarely expands to invite now experiences and a welcoming of fresh attitudes. Creativity suffers a loss because you don’t allow for recreation of any kind – and perhaps you have forgotten how to play. You have no relationship to your own sacred space and cannot find a point of sanctuary within that serves as a spiritual refuge. You think with your mind instead of your heart – sentimentality triumphs over love – the connection is therefore cut.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Your students insist that your contribution to the development of oriental medicine in the west has been to design a metaphysical approach that makes it possible to understand how the medicine works and involves the participant
directly. It is quite unique. How would you define this approach?
(Geoff to JB)
9.
GEOFF
There are three kinds of doctor. The first treats the symptoms. The second treats the cause. The third teaches the way of life – governed by the principles of balance and harmony. When something is wrong in the body and mind, it is because these principles have been neglected. Make the corrections and health can be restored.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Can you give some examples of how this works?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Sure. Unfulfilled desires lead to depression. This upsets the energy of the liver. When the energy of the liver is unbalanced, the ethereal soul suffers from neglect and this disconnects the sufferer from living the vision and supporting the life purpose. The medicine therefore consists of reconnecting the sufferer with vision and purpose. Once this is done, the depression lifts. This can be achieved through acupuncture, herbal medicine, effective strategy, and spiritual practice. In other words, to connect with vision, there has to be a sense of higher purpose.
Without this, most people get frustrated, become angry, and look for ways to engage the emotional volcano. The bottom line is that all physical disorders are spiritual disorders. All disorders have a relationship to the internal organs, and each of the organs stores an aspect of the mental-spiritual dynamic.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wow. So what you’re saying is that psychology drives the body.
(Geoff to JB)
10.
GEOFF
Correct. And there are five aspects of psychology to consider in relation to the body-mind dynamic. Theses are: the ethereal soul stored in the liver, the spirit stored in the heart, the intellect stored in the spleen, the corporeal soul stored in the lung, and the willpower stored in the kidneys.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What functions do each of them perform?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The ethereal soul stored in the liver is to the psyche what the corporeal soul is to the body. Psychologically, the corporeal soul stored in the lung is the realm of the body unconscious – with its storehouse of sensations, emotions, passions, and feelings that represent the neurological intelligence of human beings.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Fine, that’s the ethereal soul and the corporeal soul. What about the heart spirit?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Psychologically, human beings are assaulted by a lack of intimacy in relationships that is exacerbated by the modern lifestyle and the ramifications of responding to it in a state of de-sensitisation. Many people in fact, use the technique of rationalising themselves into insensitivity, as Robert Aitken puts it, because the levels of shock experienced while living in the world are too intense – and numbing out is an effective, if not dangerous and ultimately destructive, coping mechanism. In simple terms, numbing out is a protective mechanism.
(MORE)
11.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
Unfortunately, activation of the rationalising policy inhibits the capacity for the heart spirit to be satisfactorily nourished.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
It would seem so. And the intellect? How does that work?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Psychologically, disturbances of the intellect stored in the spleen are caused by self-absorption. Worry and obsession are close relatives. Consequently, life experience cannot be transformed into ideas and intentions that
otherwise would become profound expressions of the heart spirit.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Willpower is a curious phenomenon. Where does it come into the equation in terms of oriental medicine?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Psychologically, the most recognisable disturbance of the willpower stored in the kidneys is the person who is either caught up in compulsive activity or locked into the inertia of a stagnant lethargy. Without acknowledging
the existence and relevance of the ethereal soul, the corporeal soul, the intellect, the heart spirit, one is distracted by the illusion of self-importance. Drained by life instead of empowered by it, the strong urge to control the world because of fear dissipates any possibility for a sense of trust in the process of life to develop. The willpower is usually disturbed because most people push themselves to the brink of adrenal exhaustion. Without connecting to the source of vitality, artificial measures are relied on to sustain lifestyle
(MORE)
12.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
and along the way, people get lost in the traffic of competition and ambition.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
How amazing. What a model, Geoff. How many practitioners of oriental medicine do you think understand the mind in this way?
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
It depends on their training for the most part, I think. Those who have studied and trained in an environment dominated by the pursuit of academic objectives, tend to miss out on getting a taste for the spiritual tradition
that is the source of the real medicine. Certainly in terms of oriental medicine, Buddhism and Taoism play a big part in the successful and artful expression of diagnosis and treatment. At the end of the day, the quality of spiritual practice will determine the effectiveness of any interaction that takes place between the practitioner and the patient. This is why my favourite teacher told me, there are three kinds of doctor. The first treats the symptoms. He is an ordinary doctor. The second treats the cause. He is thinking bigger but still not getting it. The third teaches the way of life. He is solid as a rock on the inside and as flexible as mercury on the outside. Therefore he can develop endlessly.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
Perhaps this is something we could all aspire to. Thank you so much for the interview Geoff. We have covered much territory and there is certainly plenty of food for thought.
(JB to listeners)
13.
JB (CONT’D)
You heard it from the horse’s mouth folks. I think what we have discussed today provides a platform for deep contemplation. Till we meet again, this is James Brown signing off and fare ye well!
FADE OUT: