Oriental Mind Secrets – Geoffrey Interview with James Brown #2

Oriental Mind Secrets – Geoffrey Interview with James Brown #2 December 24, 2007

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ORIENTAL MIND SECRETS

‘From the Top’

2nd Interview between Geoffrey Wilson and James Brown

Geoffrey Wilson (Copyright September 2007)

INT. OFFICE — CONTINUOUS
(JB to listeners)
JB
Hello everybody and welcome to oriental mind secrets, an audio series designed to provide you the listener with access to the amazing work of Geoffrey Wilson – author of a remarkable distance learning course on oriental
psychology.

(JB to Geoff)
JB (CONT’D)
And hello to you, Geoff. What’s happening down under?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
We’re in the middle of spring now, probably the best time of the year in Sydney. Beautiful weather. The beach. Wouldn’t be dead for quids.

JB LAUGHS.
(JB to audience)
JB
That’s an Australian phrase which means it’s good to be alive! ‘Wouldn’t be dead for quids.’

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Do the Japanese have something similar?

(JB to Geoff)
JB
I’m not sure. I don’t know enough of the language. But I’ll ask my wife and get back to you on that one.

HE CHUCKLES.
JB (CONT’D)
On a more serious note then Geoff, I’m absolutely intrigued by the material you’ve put together on

(MORE)
2.
JB (CONT’D)
spiritual alchemy. It makes sense that alchemy would have a spiritual side to it. Some people might know that material alchemy is the transmutation of base metals into gold. If not gold, a process of transmutation where the nature of something is transformed from one state into another. What does this mean when applied to the human mind? Better still, what is spiritual alchemy? Can you explain it to the layperson?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Sure. Spiritual alchemy is a spiritual practice that basically helps people transform themselves by learning how to overcome their limitations and dump their excess baggage.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
What are the practical benefits?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
If personal limitations are overcome and excess baggage is discarded, then people can form more meaningful, loving and nurturing relationships. And of course, this allows for a deep healing to take place on the inside. We all want that, don’t we?

(JB to Geoff)
JB
I would think so. At least that has been my experience. On another level Geoff, I’ve often heard references to the
‘philosopher’s stone’ whenever the subject of spiritual alchemy has been raised. What is that about, if you wouldn’t mind explaining? I think it’s quite interesting.
3.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
It is indeed, JB. One could even go so far as to say in fact that possession of the elusive philosopher’s stone has been the goal of serious spiritual seekers since the dawn of time! Doctor John Dee, who was one of Queen
Elizabeth’s advisor’s on subjects as diverse as astronomy and mathematics, as well as alchemy, in the 16th century – is a good example.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Doctor Dee – yes – the famous Doctor Dee. Did he not also go by the name of the queen’s conjuror?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
He did. And then a chap by the name of Edward Kelley, entered Dee’s life in 1582. He was a medium who claimed to be able to contact angels and spirits. Dee longed to understand the ultimate truth about the universe which he
had failed to discover by other means. So Kelley and Dee collaborated. The two companions whose link was gold, on whatever level it manifested, went to Bohemia and Germany, creating a great stir. As the story goes, Kelly came upon a manuscript and a white ball. He went to London to visit Dee who immediately realised that the manuscript dealt with the philosopher’s stone. He opened the white ball and found a white powder inside it that was
none other than the projection powder of the alchemists! With Dee’s help, Kelly was able to experiment and actually make gold.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Didn’t Kelly go to prison and die there?

(Geoff to JB)
4.
GEOFF
He did. But there’s more to the story. You see, Kelly realised that the ability to make gold was only the first stage in understanding the alchemist’s great secret. There were actually three accomplishments – or magisteriums – as they were called.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Magisteriums?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The alchemists of the west believed that ultimate success came in three broad stages that were called magisteriums. They subsequently gave a name to each stage – and then related each of them to a stone.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Hence, the philosopher’s stone!

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Correct. The first magisterium is associated with the lunar stone. It represents gaining control over the body so that every cell is purified and relaxed, free of knots and constrained emotional energy. The second magisterium is
associated with the solar stone. When fear and the ego-identity cease to influence or interfere, the mind is ontrolled through willpower. Now, when the lunar and solar stones unite, a cosmic presence is created and this gives rise to the stellar stone. The third magisterium therefore is said to be the true atonement with the mind of God – and it allows you to see how small you really are!

(JB to Geoff)
JB
So basically, the secret of the philosopher’s stone enabled a

(MORE)
5.
JB (CONT’D)
man’s soul to attain unity with divine spirit.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
You got it! And this unity reveals the great secret of spiritual growth – that you can only accept, forgive, and love other people, everything in creation – to the extent that you are willing to accept, forgive, and love yourself.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wise words indeed! Hmm.

BRIEF PAUSE.
JB (CONT’D)
Ok, so what about spiritual alchemy?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
In a spiritual sense, alchemy is basically the nullification of negative emotional states so that they do not cause harm to oneself or others.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Would you mind going into negative emotional states for us? What are they and what happens?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
All emotions, JB, are strictly speaking, negative. Let me explain.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Please do, this is very interesting.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Let’s use the Chinese model because I think it is a very good one.

(MORE)
6.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
According to the praxis of Chinese medicine then, anger corrupts the energy of the liver – a most volatile and unstable energy – that disrupts the ability of the liver to regulate the free flowing movement of Qi throughout the
body.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Do all of the organs of the body then, have an association to an emotional state?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
They do. Excitement, for example, scatters the movement of Qi to such an extent that the heart energy becomes chaotic and this unsettles the mind causing the spirit to wander. Buddhists might well call this an aspect of the
monkey mind! Worry brings about stagnation of the spleen energy and this has the effect of damaging the processes of digestion and assimilation – on a physical as well as psycho-emotional level. Grief causes the energy of the lung to contract which is why those who are sad or disappointed suffer from deficiencies of energy – it literally falls away. And perhaps the most debilitating and destructive of emotional energies is fear – which engulfs the kidneys and severs the source of yin and yang in the body – with the result that there is no longer an anchor
for the body/mind and this also means, inadvertently I might add, the strengthening of insecurity – our great nemesis, as it were.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
So, before we get too far ahead of ourselves – you are saying that anger, excitement, worry, grief, and fear, have a negative impact on the body/mind – a crippling effect, as it were.

(Geoff to JB)
7.
GEOFF
Correct. And the Chinese alchemists called these crippling energies the ‘five thieves’. In fact, if we were to give a
definition of spiritual alchemy from the Chinese perspective, it would go something along the lines of – ‘to govern the five thieves by the five virtues’.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wow. That’s great. Can I quote you on that?

LAUGHS.
JB (CONT’D)
So, what are the virtues then?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Probably the best way to put this in perspective is to align the virtues with the organs of the body, in the same way that we looked at the thieves. If anger corrupts the liver energy, for example, benevolence restores it.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
I don’t know about you Geoff, but I reckon benevolence is very difficult to define. Would you agree?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I would. But that’s why words are so interesting – especially etymology – the study of words. By the time we’ve pulled benevolence apart, we come to learn that it has something to do with goodness. And goodness is related to the function that soul performs when it’s purpose is awakened truly.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
That makes complete sense – it fits beautifully – when soul is

(MORE)
8.
JB (CONT’D)
aligned, the liver is harmonious. What about the heart?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
As we have already stated, the heart energy is scattered by excitement. It functions best when it is fed on a diet of
compassion.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Compassion is also difficult to define, in my opinion. And it is quite different to sympathy.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes. Sympathy is emotional whereas compassion is free from emotion. When you look into the word, you find that it really means coming together with someone’s suffering. When I come together with your suffering, then I don’t try and fix it or change it – I don’t judge it as bad or uncomfortable – compassion allows me to sit in whatever you are sitting in – I am with you. And this is the root of love, I think. The source of love – where it is possible to swim in the ocean of love and mercy – as it were.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Compassion is at the heart of Buddhism – so that makes sense. We plan to talk about spiritual practices in a later program so I won’t go into it now, but the heart sutra is really the practical expression of compassion, isn’t it?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes it is. As too is the diamond sutra. But we can go into that when we explore meditation.

(JB to Geoff)
9.
JB
That would be terrific. I can’t wait. But coming back now to our discussion of virtue, you have covered the liver and heart. What virtue is associated with the spleen?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The spleen functions best when it is regulated by sincerity. By sincerity, I mean genuineness. In the same way that you can tell when someone is insincere by the way the words and deeds just don’t match, genuineness represents
intention – and intention that is sincere, can cut through most obstacles. When you stop looking for a reward in the giving, you’ll know the giving is genuine.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
The lung is associated with the virtue of justice. This can easily be misinterpreted, don’t you think?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I do. Most people have their own version of what is fair and just – usually based on their highly prejudiced sense of morality and ethics.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
How are morality and ethics prejudiced?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
There is man’s law and there is God’s law. Man’s law is an invention of the mind. God’s law is a spiritual reality. The mind is a generator of illusion. Spiritual reality is governed by cause and effect. Surely justice belongs in the domain of cause and effect – in a word karma. You reap what you sow – is how saint paul put it.

(MORE)
10.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
If you mess with someone in some way, you can be sure you’ll get missed with at some point as well. There’s also the question of time. We tend to think in linear terms, so that there is a logical progression from one action to
another. But it doesn’t always work like that. Which is why, I suppose, the soul game involves coming back, time and time again – to work out the unresolved karma.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
That’s certainly an interesting way to put it, Geoff. I like it. Justice is regulated by karma. And if that’s the case, there is no such thing as injustice – in the grand scheme of things. Wow.

BRIEF PAUSE.
JB (CONT’D)
Ok. Let’s get this straight. If an awareness of true justice precludes the lung from being bowled over by regret or an attachment to the ideal, respiration is unobstructed. What about the kidney then? What virtue maintains the vital energy stored in the kidneys?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The kidneys are nourished by wisdom. To understand this, consider how energy depletion occurs rapidly in people who push themselves to the limits of adrenal capacity – only to break down like a horse at the track. When the mind is programmed to fuel ambition and achievement there is never a moment’s rest. Obviously this is not wise. So we can understand a lot about what wisdom is by establishing what it is not. Consequently, wisdom is not based on experience or knowledge. To be wise is to understand the mechanism of the mind and resonate with the virtue of the spiritual reality and its essence within.

(MORE)
11.
GEOFF (CONT’D)
One aspect of wisdom therefore, is the ability to see through the things of they world and not get seduced by them.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Cool. Se we have covered the virtues. In terms of history then Geoff, whereabouts is the Chinese alchemical tradition placed?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Spiritual alchemy belongs to the inner teachings of Taoism – a combination of Confucian, Buddhist
and Taoist philosophies – established by the sages and disseminated through their classics. The origin of spiritual
alchemy in China can most likely be traced back to the development of the Complete reality school of Taoism – a movement that flourished somewhere between the 11th and 12th centuries. To put it in perspective, around the time of the Norman invasion of Great Britain – when Harold lost his eye at the Battle of Hastings in 1066.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Harold could well have done with some spiritual alchemy, one would imagine!

THEY LAUGH.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I reckon. He might have kept his eye!

LAUGHS.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What was the purpose of the complete reality school?

(Geoff to JB)
12.
GEOFF
To learn about and practice spiritual sublimation – the art of blending the rational and intuitive aspects of human
mentation – the left and right sides of the brain – the fluid and crystal functions of thinking – in order to bring about inner transformation and balance.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
In your work Geoff, you’ve stated that the purpose of alchemy is to transform and refine the crude. In terms of a human being, what is the crude exactly?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The crude represents the dross of temporal conditioning.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
The dross of temporal conditioning?

LAUGHS.

JB (CONT’D)
What is that, for God’s sake? Don’t go too technical on me!

LAUGHS.
(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Deeply ingrained mind habits that obscure reality. Conditioned patterns of thinking. You know, Pavlov’s dog!

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Pavlov’s dog? You’ve lost me. Please explain.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Ivan Pavlov was a scientist who developed theories of conditioned responses. You know, the dog salivated when food was on the way.

13.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
So that’s where it comes from!

GEOFF
Anyway JB, my point in bringing up Pavlov’s dog – was to emphasise the point that people are conditioned by their environment – by what someone else thinks, by what someone else feels, says, or does. In fact, I would go so far
as to suggest the term second hand person – it’s not my term actually – Jiddu Krishnamurti came up with it – but when you think about it, he’s right. We are for the most part, second hand people – shaped by how others think and
feel. And at the root of this conditioning, you will find that emotion is the trigger. Emotion drives how we think and feel.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
So back to the aim of spiritual alchemy.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The aim of spiritual alchemy therefore is to transform this second hand person.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
How?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Through burning away acquired habits of conditioning – and destroying negative and destructive behaviours. The principles of this firing process are not difficult to learn, but nonetheless they do require diligent application and expert supervision.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
How does it work?

(Geoff to JB)
14.
GEOFF
The firing process is essentially the management of emotional disturbance. Eventually, one becomes proficient in the art and cultivates profound inner strength. After a while, nothing on the outside is remotely bothersome. Your peace of mind could not be affected by the dropping of a bomb.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Are there any straight forward
tips?

GEOFF
Sure. Number one, acknowledge an emotional disturbance once it arises. Number two, don’t indulge in it. Withdraw it immediately. Number three, honour God on a daily basis. To not increase conscious awareness of this on a daily basis is to indulge in the destructive energy of self-absorption. Number four, confirm that the disturbance you are
experiencing is unbeneficial. For example, jealousy. Then talk it through with someone who understands – someone who is intelligent and not subject to emotional overtones. Number five, read anything that expands on the negative ramifications of indulging in the disturbance. Number six, put pen to paper and identify the negatives – see them clearly as they are – unbeneficial. Number seven, only then relax – only when you are undisturbed.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
What are some measures of psychological and emotional stability, Geoff?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The ability to sleep well indicates a settled mind. An appetite for food and sex is a gauge of vitality. A clean body is a good sign. So too is a clean mind.

15.
(JB to Geoff)
JB
What is a clean mind?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
A clean mind is free from distractions that otherwise lead to trouble. A distracted mind is not focused and a lack of focus produces fragmentation. I would also say that stability is reflected by an ability to just be.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
In terms of yin and yang, what is the ideal aggregate for a human being to embody?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
According to oriental philosophy, there are four possible destinies for a human being. The first one is where someone is yin on the inside and yin on the outside. What will happen to such a person JB?

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Without yang, I suppose such a person will get lost in a sinking inertia.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Very good. In fact, this person will get trodden on! Soft on the inside and soft on the outside. Emotional and weak, this type will get crushed. The second type is the opposite. Yang on the inside and yang on the outside. A recipe for cruelty. Hard on the inside and hard on the outside. The third type is yin on the inside and yang on the outside. What kind of destiny is this for someone?

(JB to Geoff)
16.
JB
Soft on the inside and hard on the outside is the make-up of a celebrity, isn’t it?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Excellent, JB. Which leaves us with the fourth type.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Yang on the inside and yin on the outside.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
This is the destiny of someone who will develop endlessly!

FADE OUT: