Oriental Mind Secrets – Interview with JB #3 – Milarepa to Krishnamurrti

Oriental Mind Secrets – Interview with JB #3 – Milarepa to Krishnamurrti March 17, 2008

Posted by Geoffrey Wilson in : Interview Transcripts , trackback

‘Right and wrong are situational. In the appropriate situation nothing is wrong. Without the appropriate situation, nothing is right. What is right in one case is not what is right in another. What is wrong in one case is not what is wrong in another.’ Masters of Huainan

INT. OFFICE — CONTINUOUS
(JB to listeners)
JB
Hello everybody and welcome to oriental mind secrets, an audio series designed to provide you the listener with access to the amazing work of Geoffrey Wilson – author of a remarkable distance learning course on oriental psychology.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
And hello to you, Geoff. What’s happening down under?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
It’s been an odd week. One day cool, boiling the next – at least here in Sydney. We’re gearing up for a visit from the Sri Lankans and Indians this summer in the cricket. And of course on a personal note, the task list seems to grow exponentially.

JB LAUGHS.
(JB to audience)
JB
How’s that?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Would like me to give you a rundown?

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Please do.
HE CHUCKLES.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
There’s the blog.

GEOFF
If I didn’t have much else to do, writing an entry once a week wouldn’t be too tough an assignment. But that’s not the case. Concurrently, I’m writing a novel, editing the final drafts of two screenplays, writing thirteen drafts for what will become thirty minute episodes of the new television series on holistic medicine that I’m writing and producing, and working on an audio book – my first attempt – with a distinguished old school Australian theater and film actor – Simon Chilvers – who has agreed to narrate the book – taken from my own novella. Then there’s the clinic and the management of patients and we haven’t gone shopping yet!

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Sounds like you’re a bit overwhelmed Geoff. I would be too with a workload like that!

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
When you put it that way, I guess I am. In the same breath, I love my work so much I don’t see it as work.

Brief pause.
GEOFF
So the project I’m doing with the actor, Simon Chilvers, for example, is a once in a lifetime type of opportunity. He’s brilliant. Can you imagine having the benefit of all those years behind you, acting and directing, and editing, and strategising? Just the wealth of that world? And of course he has the most extraordinary voice. The audio book is based on my novella ‘The Redemption of Mila’ – and I also wrote a screenplay for it. As you can tell, I’m very passionate about the story.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
What’s it about?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The story is about the life of Milarepa – the Tibetan saint who it can be said had a life lived in two distinct halves. The first half of his life is the dark period. Without spoiling the telling of the story, at a young age he is forced into slavery and promises his mother to seek revenge on those who have done he and his mother and sister wrong. He takes up the black arts of sorcery and wreaks havoc. It is an extraordinary tale of revenge in fact. Some of it is quite gruesome and he gains something of a reputation as a skillful sorcerer. But you see, he can’t take it. He feels remorse for what he has done out of vengeance and so he looks for a way out. The second half of his life is the story of his redemption and the struggle he endures to atone for his misdeeds.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Sounds very interesting. I’ve heard that Milarepa is one of the founders of Tibetan Buddhism in fact. And that his philosophies are alive and well today – and that they actually form part of our new age vocabulary. What are some of these philosophies Geoff?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
I think I’ll go straight for the gold JB.

JB
Why not?

GEOFF
It has been suggested that Milarepa’s enlightenment occurred while he was holed up in a cave following an initiation he received from his teacher Marpa the translator.

JB
That’s an odd name.

GEOFF
Not really. You see Milarepa’s teacher was known for his travels to India in search of ancient scriptures. He would bring them back and then translate them. Hence the name – Marpa the translator. His task was to bring Milarepa to enlightenment following his disciple’s fall from grace and his time spent as a sorcerer.

JB
Okay. That makes sense. So what is the gold?

GEOFF
If there is such a thing as the final goal, Milarepa taught, one has to realize the non-existence of the personal ego. In realizing this, one understands the illusion of its existence in the first place. To realize the illusion, to grasp it, to comprehend it, the mind must be very quiet. Indeed. As Milarepa said, ‘One must therefore learn more than the definition of quietude’.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Most profound. And I dare say that in order to learn more than the definition of quietude is to learn about the art of meditation – which is the subject of our discussion today.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Jolly good. I knew we’d get there eventually. In the same breath, this is a rather delightful seguay. What better way to talk about meditation than through the life of Milarepa. And as you may already know JB, everyone seeks peace and harmony. We want to find out what will help free us from our miseries – the agitation, the irritation, the disharmony and so on ans so forth. Am I right?

(JB to Geoff)
JB
You are.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
But the funny thing is that we don’t just keep these miseries to ourselves do we?

JB
No.

GEOFF
We project them onto others as well.

JB
Now that you mention it, I suppose we do.

GEOFF
So now we have a situation where unhappiness permeates the atmosphere around someone – you for example.

JB
You’re picking on me a lot today.

GEOFF
Who else can I pick on?

Laugh and a pause.

GEOFF
You are miserable and you then come into contact with others. What do you think happens to them?

(JB to Geoff)
JB
They become affected and infected!

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Yes, they become infected by your misery – immediately. They pick up on the vibe in the same way an infant picks up on the vibe of a complete stranger.

JB
Are you saying people are emotional sponges?

GEOFF
I am. But it gets worse. Certainly becoming a slave to this unhappiness is not a very skillful way to live either for you or
someone else. If you think about it, the cause of suffering is the generation of negativity and when this happens we are bound to become unhappy. Put it this way, negativity cannot coexist with peace and harmony.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
I suppose you are right. How do we then generate negativity Geoff? An you explain the process for us?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Sure. We become unhappy when we find someone behaving in a way that we don’t like or when we find something happening which we don’t like.

JB
So far so good.
GEOFF
Unwanted things happen and this creates tension within. And then while this is happening, desired things do not happen – some obstacle gets in the way to prevent it happening – and again, this increases tension within.
JB
The days, weeks, months, and years fly past.
GEOFF
They do.

JB
Unwanted things keep on happening, and desired things don’t happen.

GEOFF
Correct.

JB
We become so tense, so full of negativity, that life becomes miserable.

GEOFF
You got it!

(JB to Geoff)
JB
How do you put an end to it then?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Good question. The wisdom keepers, that is to say, the saints and sages of the ancient world, studied this problem at great length – as I’m sure you can appreciate.

JB
I do.

GEOFF
That’s what Milarepa’s life was about. And each of these wonderful souls discovered that you have to face the problem. Whenever negativity arises in the mind, you must observe it, face it directly, and don’t ever run away from it. And as soon as the negativity is observed as it is, for what it is, the impurities accumulating in the mind, begin to lose their power and they slowly evaporate.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
But how does this happen?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Problems are inside everybody, aren’t they? They’re never outside.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
True.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
We tend to think that they are outside, but they are not.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Yes, that is true. Definitely.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Problems then are nothing more than our own reactions to things.

JB
Okay.

GEOFF
That is what keeps destroying our peace of mind and that is what keeps destroying our harmony.

JB
Reactions?

GEOFF
Yes. We become unhappy because we’re always reacting. Even when things are going well, we start getting attached to our feelings about them. We think ‘this is fabulous’ – ‘I hope it lasts forever’. Of course, it doesn’t and it is at this point that we become miserable because it doesn’t last forever.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Bummer!

JB laughs.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Perhaps, but that’s the way it is.

Geoff laughs.

GEOFF
Stay with me JB. This is where it gets very interesting.

JB
I’m with you buddy.

GEOFF
Good. Mental purification is the removal of reactions that make people feel unhappy.

JB
Reactions are always external aren’t they?

GEOFF
Think about it.

GEOFF
Aren’t anger, passion, fear, depression, anxiety, and so on, just reactions to what is going on outside?

JB
They are.

GEOFF
So with training and practice, it is very easy to observe respiration – the breathing – and body sensations – what you are feeling – both of which are directly related to mental defilements.

JB
I guess so.

GEOFF
As soon as negativity arises in the mind, the breath will lose it’s normality. It will start shouting. ‘Look here mister, something has gone wrong’. And of course, we cannot reprimand the breath, can we?

JB laughs.

JB
No, we can’t reprimand the breath. That would be too silly!

GEOFF
Right. So we can only accept the warning – sensations also tell us something is wrong. Having been warned about the breath, about these sensations, we can observe both the respiration and the corresponding sensations. Sooner or later, we discover that the negativity vanishes.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
But how?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
The soma-psyche phenomenon is like a coin with two sides. On one side of the coin are the thoughts and emotions arising in the mind. On the other side of the coin, are breathing and sensations in the body.

JB
Let me get this right. One side houses thoughts and feelings. The other side houses sensations and breathing. What happens in one will be experienced in the other.

GEOFF
Precisely. Any thoughts and emotions, or any mental impurities that may arise, manifest in the breath and sensations of that moment.

JB
So by observing the respiration or the sensations, we are in fact observing mental impurities.

GEOFF
That’s it. Instead of running away from them, we are facing reality as it is. We then discover that these impurities lose their strength and they no longer overpower us as they once did. If we persist, these impurities disappear altogether and we may begin to live peacefully and happily – free from negativities.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Where does this technique come from? Did you invent it?

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
This technique – if it can be called a technique – it is more an approach – a way of thinking – is called vipassana. The word means to see things as they really are.

JB
I’ve heard of it. Aren’t there special retreats? Ten day, fourteen day and thirty day retreats?

GEOFF
Yes there are. All over the world. Vipassana is one of India’s greatest exports. Self-transformation through self-observation. Another word for it is insight meditation.

JB
Who is responsible for discovering it? Do we know?

GEOFF
It was discovered or rediscovered by Gautama Buddha more than 2,500 years ago and was taught by him as a universal remedy for the treatment of universal ills.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
So Vipassana is Buddhist. I didn’t know that.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Don’t worry, JB. The label doesn’t matter. It is irrelevant.

He laughs.

GEOFF
The technique or approach is what is important. It shows us reality in two aspects – the inner and the outer. Most people are trained to look at the outer only – completely missing the inner reality – with the result that they always look outside of themselves for the cause of their unhappiness.

JB
And as such, the outer gets blamed for everything.

GEOFF
Correct. And ignorant of the inner reality, therefore, it is difficult to understand that the cause of suffering lies within – put simply, our blind reactions towards pleasant and unpleasant sensations is the sole cause of this suffering.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
If blind reaction represents judgment, then our expression of a preference for this or that is what ultimately separates us – divides us – and we become fragments – cut into two.

JB
When you accept this but reject that, you are caught in the problem of dividing reality into two halves. Naturally though, reality is not divided. It is whole.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
Very good JB. This is the problem with Western thinking going right back to Aristotle.

JB
How do you mean?

GEOFF
Aristotle is the one who said you’ve got a choice. You can choose this or you can choose that. He neglected to mention the mischief implied by choosing one thing over another.

JB
Can you elaborate?

GEOFF
If I choose this, I will have to reject that. The reality however is not concerned with preferences. There is only the whole. It is not made up of right and wrong, good and bad. As the Masters of Huainan say, ‘Right and wrong are situational. In the appropriate situation nothing is wrong. Without the appropriate situation, nothing is right. What is right in one case is not what is right in another. What is wrong in one case is not what is wrong in another.

JB
Can you refer back to your coin analogy?

GEOFF
With training, we can learn to see the other side of the coin simultaneously. We can become aware of our breathing as well as what is happening on the inside. Whatever it is, breath or sensation, we can learn to observe it without losing our mental balance.

GEOFF
Most importantly, we can stop reacting and when we cease reacting, we can put an end to the vicious cycle of multiplying our misery. In lieu of this, mental defilements come and go – like thoughts – eventually they pass away.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
So in effect, you are saying that if one watches without judgment, but just watches.. Then sensations of every kind – previously perceived as positive or negative – but now without reference to either positive or negative – completely lose their sting.

GEOFF
That’s correct.

JB
I get it. So in watching without judgment, ‘what is’ remains as ‘what is’ – whatever it is. Nothing can be done about it. It is as it is.

(Geoff to JB)
GEOFF
You got it. And the more one practices this sublime technique, the more quickly negativities dissolve. Gradually, the mind is liberated from defilements and it becomes pure.

JB
Very cool. It’s quite similar to Krishnamurti, really.

GEOFF
How do you figure?

JB
I would say vipassana is similar to the teaching of Krishnamurti in as much as there is only the act of observation – what he called, the phenomenon of the observer and the observed.

GEOFF
I see what you’re saying – yes. The observer is the observed.

GEOFF
There is no interval between them. Nor is there a naming ceremony. In other words, the urge to label things ends and with it, judgment. There is then only observation. He called it passive watchfulness.

JB
And finally today, what would you say are the qualities of a pure mind Geoff?

GEOFF
In as much as the description is never the described – another borrowing from Krishnamurti – he’s right – we are second hand people -

- They laugh -

GEOFF
- a pure mind is a loving mind. Such a mind is always full of love, full of selfless love for others, full of compassion, for the failings and sufferings of others, full of joy, and it is ultimately equanimous – in the face of any challenge or circumstance.

(JB to Geoff)
JB
Wonderful.

FADE OUT: